Wobbly and windy conditions

[ilmsup]

Hello SUPers,

I started SUP surfing about 10 years ago at the age of 55. I'm 1.86 meters tall and weigh close to 80 kilos (175 lbs). I used to have a locally shaped high-performance board that I sold when I moved. It was 8 feet by 30 inches and less than 7 kilos.  It had thin rails and a lot of rocker. I loved the board when conditions were clean; it was great for steep shore breaks. However, when the waves went overhead, there was a lot of wobble, which made it difficult to balance and drive. I really struggled when there was backwash or wind.

After moving, I bought a used Starboard Pocket Rocket, 8'3" and 130 liters. It's a lot heavier and feels like a clunker performance-wise. I will say it's easier to balance and drive in bigger conditions, but the thicker rails make me hesitant on steep waves. I usually put all my weight on the tail and go straight down the face rather than engage the rails, fearing that the wave might flip the board toward me. Sometimes, when I do that, the board lands with a clunk, like it fell off a cliff rather than slid down a steep hill. It's also much harder to turn than my previous board.

One day, I took it out to a cove that's popular with SUP surfers. I found myself struggling with the backwash and side chop, just like I had with my lower-volume board. I left that day feeling like I had given up a lot of performance for not much stability.

A couple of days ago, I found a great deal on a Fanatic ProWave, 8'10" by 29" and 119 liters. I tried it out the next day in small conditions with light texture and moderate wind. It feels more like my old board, and I'm eager to try it in bigger conditions.

When I was starting out, I bought a SUP ATX Escape, 10 feet by 29 inches, one of those all-around boards.  It was much harder to turn but I would use my paddle and put weight in the skiff. The one feature I like however was that model had thin rails that engaged easily in a steep wave. My next board was 8'5" with thicker rails. On the first steep wave I caught on that board, the wave flipped the board into my shins. That's what motivated me to get a board shaped for steeper waves.

If the ProWave is like my old board, I expect I'll struggle in wobbly and windy conditions. I've noticed some surfers are going much longer, even up to 10 feet. Speed is a friend of stability.  So perhaps the problem is getting enough speed in wobbly and windy conditions. The pocket rocket was very slow.  While I could maintain stability paddling when I would drive into a wave it would lose my balance before I caught the wave when conditions were wobbly.  So, my question is: will a longboard with a similar volume offer the stability by virtue of the increase speed that I need to catch a wave in these conditions? What volume should I target, and how can I make sure it still has enough performance for big waves?  When I think back on the 10 ft SUPatx escape I remember how I could chase almost any wave down, while with my short high performance I needed a lot more lift to catch a wave which meant latter take offs.  And that is what made me so vulnerable in wobbly waves.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.

[finbox]

Hi,
Come take a trip to San O in California. Go rent some high performance SUPs from Infinity and see what works. Or try to borrow board to try. I am not related to infinity. They are the only shop locally that rents performance surf SUP's

[jpeter]

Ilm,  I don't quite understand part of what you are describing.  To me, wobbly conditions are from chop or chop + wind.  Bigger conditions generally don't seem to effect stability.  Sometimes bigger can cause more of a reflected back wave which can throw you off. 29"w, 119L sounds decently stable for a 175lb weight.  A board like that should also drop into a wave better than something bigger.  I would just practice with what you have sounds like a good size for you. Also sounds like a good shape based on what you originally used and liked.
  For me, I weigh about the same as you.  I have a coulple short wide tail boards (125L and 135L) with that excel in mushy waves but fast head high get scary.  Also have a fanatic stylemaster thats 10'6 and 140L.  Turns out that one isn't easy to surf, but fun to run around on the deck.  Also catching choppy waves on the 10'6 isn't ideal.  It will catch big set waves way outside though.  One year ago I got a JL stungun 8'7/110L/29.5"w  I figured that would be my go-to for bigger days only.  Turns out I have been using the Stun gun most days, big and small.
  Have fun with it.  JP

[sflinux]

So you are ~80kg
The Starboard pocket rocket is 135L giving you a guild factor of 1.69.  That is too much volume for you regardless of the rail shape.
The Prowave is 119l giving you a guild factor of 1.48 which is fantastic.
How long is your paddle relative to your height?  When I used boards with a guild factor around 1.5, the paddle was about my height.  When I dropped to boards with a guild factor of 1.1-1.3 I found stability was better with a paddle around nose height, with a lower center of gravity.  It was much harder to ride the smaller boards with the longer paddle. 

Do you want more pitch stability (nose up / tail down)?
If yes, than you will benefit from a longer board.
Or do you want more roll stability (left turn / right turn?
Either wider, longer, or fuller nose & tail, or a different fin setup.
Or do you want more yaw stability? (Nose rotate clockwise /counterclockwise)
If yes, then you can try a different fin setup.

Choppy conditions in surf are tough. In windblown chop all of the swell is coming from the same direction i.e. if you are on a bay.  In surf the swell is likely coming from many directions, then can rebound off the shore for a number of other directions.  Plus you have the wind applying a force to the surface area of your board.  I am currently experimenting with boards with minimal surface area in these conditions.  Prone is a nice option in these conditions (volume is your friend).

How is your fitness?  Strong flexible legs and ankles will help.  I find skateboarding uses complementary muscles, excellent cross training.

How big are the waves you are talking about? 
Check out Beasho's recomendation on board length:
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,35610.15.html
When the waves get bigger i tend to gravitate to pintail boards.

Jimmy Lewis has a good selection of boards that I find to be user friendly (i.e. intuitive).  You can even call the shop to see what they would recommend for your conditions.

[ilmsup]

Ilm,  I don't quite understand part of what you are describing.  To me, wobbly conditions are from chop or chop + wind.  Bigger conditions generally don't seem to effect stability.  Sometimes bigger can cause more of a reflected back wave which can throw you off. 29"w, 119L sounds decently stable for a 175lb weight.  A board like that should also drop into a wave better than something bigger.  I would just practice with what you have sounds like a good size for you. Also sounds like a good shape based on what you originally used and liked.
  For me, I weigh about the same as you.  I have a coulple short wide tail boards (125L and 135L) with that excel in mushy waves but fast head high get scary.  Also have a fanatic stylemaster thats 10'6 and 140L.  Turns out that one isn't easy to surf, but fun to run around on the deck.  Also catching choppy waves on the 10'6 isn't ideal.  It will catch big set waves way outside though.  One year ago I got a JL stungun 8'7/110L/29.5"w  I figured that would be my go-to for bigger days only.  Turns out I have been using the Stun gun most days, big and small.
  Have fun with it.  JP

Thank you JP this is very helpful.  Yes by wobbly I mean big conditions often some with refractory waves, either backwash or side wash if in a cove or near a jetty.  When I posted this I had just purchased the Infinity  pro wave 119litres.  While it has been an adjustment I am able to use it in large conditions provided I can get it beyond the breakers (which is a common problem on the beach breaks here in Portugal when waves get 2 meters or greater). But there is a reef breaks in a cove here with an easier paddle out but it has a lot of the wobble I described.  I have only tried to surf it on my Pocket Rocket 130ltrs.  While more stable, that board is slower and heavier than my Infinity.  So I failed to chase down any waves and the slower spread made it more sensitive to refractory waves. I was thinking a 10 ft board with 140 liters would be good for that break.  I have definitely concluded my Infinity is superior to the Pocket rocket.  I even told it out when we had a lot of hard offshore gusts.  While the PR is better on those conditions for stability given its extra weight I do better chasing down waves on the faster Infinity and responding to the steeper waves that intimidated me on the PR since I didn't trust the board's sluggish response.

Mushy conditions I expect would be an another story.  Here in the winter when there is onshore or cross/onshore,  few people go out.  The paddle out is brutal because the waves are usually often 2 meters with a short period.  In the summer however it might be fun to get out and ride some whitewater with the right board.  Waves in the summer are far smaller. I believe that is what the Starboard Hypernut and Gong mob are designed for.

[ilmsup]

So you are ~80kg
The Starboard pocket rocket is 135L giving you a guild factor of 1.69.  That is too much volume for you regardless of the rail shape.
The Prowave is 119l giving you a guild factor of 1.48 which is fantastic.
How long is your paddle relative to your height?  When I used boards with a guild factor around 1.5, the paddle was about my height.  When I dropped to boards with a guild factor of 1.1-1.3 I found stability was better with a paddle around nose height, with a lower center of gravity.  It was much harder to ride the smaller boards with the longer paddle. 

Do you want more pitch stability (nose up / tail down)?
If yes, than you will benefit from a longer board.
Or do you want more roll stability (left turn / right turn?
Either wider, longer, or fuller nose & tail, or a different fin setup.
Or do you want more yaw stability? (Nose rotate clockwise /counterclockwise)
If yes, then you can try a different fin setup.

Choppy conditions in surf are tough. In windblown chop all of the swell is coming from the same direction i.e. if you are on a bay.  In surf the swell is likely coming from many directions, then can rebound off the shore for a number of other directions.  Plus you have the wind applying a force to the surface area of your board.  I am currently experimenting with boards with minimal surface area in these conditions.  Prone is a nice option in these conditions (volume is your friend).

How is your fitness?  Strong flexible legs and ankles will help.  I find skateboarding uses complementary muscles, excellent cross training.

How big are the waves you are talking about? 
Check out Beasho's recomendation on board length:
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,35610.15.html
When the waves get bigger i tend to gravitate to pintail boards.

Jimmy Lewis has a good selection of boards that I find to be user friendly (i.e. intuitive).  You can even call the shop to see what they would recommend for your conditions.

So you are ~80kg
The Starboard pocket rocket is 135L giving you a guild factor of 1.69.  That is too much volume for you regardless of the rail shape.
The Prowave is 119l giving you a guild factor of 1.48 which is fantastic.
How long is your paddle relative to your height?  When I used boards with a guild factor around 1.5, the paddle was about my height.  When I dropped to boards with a guild factor of 1.1-1.3 I found stability was better with a paddle around nose height, with a lower center of gravity.  It was much harder to ride the smaller boards with the longer paddle. 

Do you want more pitch stability (nose up / tail down)?
If yes, than you will benefit from a longer board.
Or do you want more roll stability (left turn / right turn?
Either wider, longer, or fuller nose & tail, or a different fin setup.
Or do you want more yaw stability? (Nose rotate clockwise /counterclockwise)
If yes, then you can try a different fin setup.

Choppy conditions in surf are tough. In windblown chop all of the swell is coming from the same direction i.e. if you are on a bay.  In surf the swell is likely coming from many directions, then can rebound off the shore for a number of other directions.  Plus you have the wind applying a force to the surface area of your board.  I am currently experimenting with boards with minimal surface area in these conditions.  Prone is a nice option in these conditions (volume is your friend).

How is your fitness?  Strong flexible legs and ankles will help.  I find skateboarding uses complementary muscles, excellent cross training.

How big are the waves you are talking about? 
Check out Beasho's recomendation on board length:
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,35610.15.html
When the waves get bigger i tend to gravitate to pintail boards.

Jimmy Lewis has a good selection of boards that I find to be user friendly (i.e. intuitive).  You can even call the shop to see what they would recommend for your conditions.

Thanx SFL.  This is also very helpful.  I didn't know about the glide factor. That explains why the PR felt so sluggish.  My paddle unfortunately has calcified into one position which is about head high.  I have taken the Infinity out a few times since I first posted this. I find it helps to tell myself to get use to the paddling the board in various conditions and let catching waves be a bonus.  This has made a big difference.  Yesterday there were a lot of strong gusts with clean head high waves.  I only caught three waves in an hour and fell of the board a few times but it felt like a good day. It is exhausting but that is what paddling into the wind does.  I discovered that the glide factor you described is a huge bonus.  There were a few waves that I tried to catch didn't break but gave me a great glide.  More importantly I trusted my new boards response far more than the PR.

As far as fitness and experience, I have been an athlete my whole life and have never been out of shape.  Albeit a healthy one, it has been a long life.  I didn't take this sport up until I was 55 and now at 65 I find it can't progress much more than intermediate level.

[sflinux]

I was referring to guild factor, which is just the ratio of the volume of the board to your weight:
https://www.supconnect.com/tips/volume-in-stand-up-paddle-surfboards

supthecreek has a nice video exploring volume & width:

rider = 99kg
sp25 8'8 "138l [gf=1.39]
sp25 8'11" 150l [gf=1.52]
sp25 9'5" 177l [gf=1.79]
sp24 9'7" 173l  [gf=1.74]
gf= guild factor (volume of board in L/ weight of rider in kg)

Your 10' x 29" SUP ATX escape was 140L with a guild factor of 1.75.  Any board under a guild factor of 1.8 shouldn't negatively affect an intermediate surfer (<144 L @ 80kg).  In rough conditions you should not need a board with a guild factor above 2.2 (176L @ 80kg)
https://www.blueplanetsurf.com/blogs/news/sup-board-volume-recommendation-chart/

Glide can be affected by several things: length (longer is better), width (narrower is better), rocker (less is better), and fins (less is better, single, twin, & quad is faster than thruster or 2+1).

The upper limit of a ~9' board is around 10' waves.
A 10'  x 28" board is good for catching waves up to 15 ft face range.
Refer to Beasho:
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,35610.15.html

Something like a Jimmy Lewis Bombora (28" / 125L / GF 1.56) is worth considering for chasing overhead fast moving waves.  Pintails are great for steep waves.  I have a 9'6" x 30" Joe Blair pulled in nose pin tail that I trust in waves like this.
Or just a traditional 10' all around shape.  The swallow tail of your SUP ATX escape was cool for a very long rail line & paired with thin rails.
The other option is a board like a 9' simsup which has a wide tail so early lift, paddles like a traditional board 1 foot longer (i.e. 9' simsup is like a 10' traditional board).  Boards of this shape like to race to the shoulder.  Different continent, but check out Kirk Mcginty's shapes at L41surfcraft.  They shine in reef breaks.

There are people on this forum who have used the Fanatic Pro Wave, I have not.  If memory serves it has a full rail which will accentuate the energy of the surface (chop, bumps, wind, etc) versus a board with thinner rails.
What type of fin setup have you tried on the Fanatic Prowave?  I like to try fin combination before I rule out a board, you may stumble on a magic combo.

Regarding intermediate status, most surfers I know never progress much more than the intermediate level without advanced coaching.  As long as you are having fun and not grumpy, then you are doing it right.